* Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests
@ 2008-05-08 17:43 Elias Oltmanns
2008-05-09 11:55 ` Jens Axboe
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Elias Oltmanns @ 2008-05-08 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jens Axboe, James Bottomley; +Cc: linux-scsi, linux-kernel
Hi Jens,
way back you introduced REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests as some sort of
generic block layer messages. As it turns out, it is not quite obvious
how to add support for this type of requests in the scsi subsystem
properly. On the other hand, Boaz Harrosh has recently added support for
variable length and in particular vendor specific CDBs to the scsi mid
layer. My question to you and James is this: Would it make sense, in
your opinion, to (ab)use BLOCK_PC requests carrying linux specific CDBs
for those purposes you had in mind when introducing LINUX_BLOCK
requests? This would make things much easier as far as scsi is concerned
and it would still be possible to add suport for this kind of requests
to non scsi drivers. On the other hand, this might constitute too
serious a violation of the layers and subsystems involved as I'm
not quite sure, for instance, where to keep the list of those linux
specific opcodes -- include/linux/blkdev.h and include/scsi/scsi.h both
don't seem quite right.
The reason why I'm bothering you with all this is that I'm trying to get
disk shock protection merged into mainline eventually; see the subthread
starting at [1] for a preliminary patch series. Since I want to make
this feature available to both, libata as well as ide, it is appealing
to put the common bits (the timer and the user interface) into the block
layer, thus avoiding code duplication. However, given the difficulties
to realise this approach sanely, it might be better to leave the block
layer out of it as far as possible. After all, it's the ATA specific
feature (immediate disk head unloading) I really care for and by means
of ioctls we could still provide an interface to userspace which doesn't
depend on whether the device is managed by libata or ide.
In fact, unless you are definitely in favour of the block layer approach
(as realised in [2]) and can give me a hint as to how I could solve the
problems described above, I will probably prepare a patch series using
ioctls and post it on linux-ide. The reason is that this approach might
even solve another problem I see further down the road.
Thank you for your advice,
Elias
[1] <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ide/29519>
[2] <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ide/29523>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests
2008-05-08 17:43 Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests Elias Oltmanns
@ 2008-05-09 11:55 ` Jens Axboe
2008-05-15 10:58 ` Elias Oltmanns
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Jens Axboe @ 2008-05-09 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Elias Oltmanns; +Cc: James Bottomley, linux-scsi, linux-kernel
On Thu, May 08 2008, Elias Oltmanns wrote:
> Hi Jens,
>
> way back you introduced REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests as some sort of
> generic block layer messages. As it turns out, it is not quite obvious
> how to add support for this type of requests in the scsi subsystem
> properly. On the other hand, Boaz Harrosh has recently added support for
> variable length and in particular vendor specific CDBs to the scsi mid
> layer. My question to you and James is this: Would it make sense, in
> your opinion, to (ab)use BLOCK_PC requests carrying linux specific CDBs
> for those purposes you had in mind when introducing LINUX_BLOCK
> requests? This would make things much easier as far as scsi is concerned
> and it would still be possible to add suport for this kind of requests
> to non scsi drivers. On the other hand, this might constitute too
> serious a violation of the layers and subsystems involved as I'm
> not quite sure, for instance, where to keep the list of those linux
> specific opcodes -- include/linux/blkdev.h and include/scsi/scsi.h both
> don't seem quite right.
Large cdb support is just a direct extension of REQ_BLOCK_PC as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't fit well with the REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK.
> The reason why I'm bothering you with all this is that I'm trying to get
> disk shock protection merged into mainline eventually; see the subthread
> starting at [1] for a preliminary patch series. Since I want to make
> this feature available to both, libata as well as ide, it is appealing
> to put the common bits (the timer and the user interface) into the block
> layer, thus avoiding code duplication. However, given the difficulties
> to realise this approach sanely, it might be better to leave the block
> layer out of it as far as possible. After all, it's the ATA specific
> feature (immediate disk head unloading) I really care for and by means
> of ioctls we could still provide an interface to userspace which doesn't
> depend on whether the device is managed by libata or ide.
So wrt opcodes, the space from 0x40 and up should be generic Linux
sanctioned opcodes. For the disk shock protection, you would like
something like REQ_LB_OP_PARKHEAD?
> In fact, unless you are definitely in favour of the block layer approach
> (as realised in [2]) and can give me a hint as to how I could solve the
> problems described above, I will probably prepare a patch series using
> ioctls and post it on linux-ide. The reason is that this approach might
> even solve another problem I see further down the road.
There isn't going to be a lot of common code, since all the park
handling will be driver/device specific. It still makes sense to use the
queue as the transport for the command though, using an ioctl is both
ugly from a design POV and (more importantly) has serialization issues
since it's an out-of-band signalling mechanism. If you pass down a
request as the park request, then you need only deal with the device
specific details of parking the head.
--
Jens Axboe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests
2008-05-09 11:55 ` Jens Axboe
@ 2008-05-15 10:58 ` Elias Oltmanns
2008-05-15 20:17 ` Elias Oltmanns
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Elias Oltmanns @ 2008-05-15 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jens Axboe; +Cc: James Bottomley, linux-scsi, linux-kernel
Jens Axboe <jens.axboe@oracle.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 08 2008, Elias Oltmanns wrote:
[...]
>> In fact, unless you are definitely in favour of the block layer approach
>> (as realised in [2]) and can give me a hint as to how I could solve the
>> problems described above, I will probably prepare a patch series using
>> ioctls and post it on linux-ide. The reason is that this approach might
>> even solve another problem I see further down the road.
>
> There isn't going to be a lot of common code, since all the park
> handling will be driver/device specific.
Yes, it's just the expiration timer and possibly the interface to user
space that could be considered common code.
> It still makes sense to use the queue as the transport for the command
> though, using an ioctl is both ugly from a design POV and (more
> importantly) has serialization issues since it's an out-of-band
> signalling mechanism. If you pass down a request as the park request,
> then you need only deal with the device specific details of parking
> the head.
Well, the request queue is certainly the most obvious and preferable way
to solve these serialisation issues -- the only drawback being that
other paths might involve less memory allocations, thus reducing
potential issues with paging in when time is of the essence. The
question remains, however, who should be responsible for enqueueing such
a request? And if it is going to be a REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK request, how
am I supposed to get it past scsi midlayer to the LLDD? But I'll discuss
that particular issue in a seperate mail.
Here is another aspect which I'd like to have your opinion as maintainer
of the block layer about. The more I think about it, the more I am
opposed to the idea to expose a generic queue freezing facility to user
space for *all* block devices. Or rather, I don't consider disk shock
protection an extension, as it were, of such a generic facility. The
reason is simply that I don't see how the two concepts can be generally
compatible. If queue freezing was sufficient for any given application
and for any given block device, then we'd most likely want to freeze the
queue of ATA devices just as we'd do for other devices, i.e., without
disk head unloading. This is because the number of head unloads is
considered an indicator of disk aging.
So, I'd like to export an interface to user space which is specifically
dedicated to disk shock protection, i.e., only available for ATA / IDE
devices. On the other hand, it would be desirable to make this interface
transparent, so user space doesn't have to differentiate between devices
driven by the libata or the ide subsystem. A sysfs attribute
/sys/block/.../queue/protect or even just /sys/block/.../protect would
be very convenient from a user's point of view. However, this would
require something like a blk_register_protect_attr() /
blk_unregister_protect_attr() interface so that libata and ide can
export this attribute for disks after calling blk_init_queue(). Would
that be alright with you? Otherwise, I'd have to implement this
interface directly in the subsystems and *thats* where ioctls seem to be
the easiest way to make this interface as transparent as possible to
user space. In this case a park request of some sort would be fed to the
request queue internally.
Any comments?
Elias
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests
2008-05-15 10:58 ` Elias Oltmanns
@ 2008-05-15 20:17 ` Elias Oltmanns
0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Elias Oltmanns @ 2008-05-15 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw
To: James Bottomley; +Cc: Jens Axboe, linux-scsi, linux-kernel
Elias Oltmanns <eo@nebensachen.de> wrote:
> Jens Axboe <jens.axboe@oracle.com> wrote:
[...]
>> It still makes sense to use the queue as the transport for the command
>> though, using an ioctl is both ugly from a design POV and (more
>> importantly) has serialization issues since it's an out-of-band
>> signalling mechanism. If you pass down a request as the park request,
>> then you need only deal with the device specific details of parking
>> the head.
>
> Well, the request queue is certainly the most obvious and preferable way
> to solve these serialisation issues -- the only drawback being that
> other paths might involve less memory allocations, thus reducing
> potential issues with paging in when time is of the essence. The
> question remains, however, who should be responsible for enqueueing such
> a request? And if it is going to be a REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK request, how
> am I supposed to get it past scsi midlayer to the LLDD? But I'll discuss
> that particular issue in a seperate mail.
Right, this is something for the scsi people and probably James in
particular to comment on. Earlier this year, I sent a patch [1] to
implement REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK in the scsi subsystem. Maybe, an
alternative approach would be to set aside a linux specific scsi opcode
(courtesy of Boaz's variable length cdb support) in order to attach
LINUX_BLOCK requests to this cdb and hand them down to LLDDs. However,
I'm not quite sure whether this is feasible or, indeed, desirable in the
long run.
And finally, here is yet another, but I'm afraid just as hackish
possibility to get shock protection working for both libata and ide: We
define linux specific opcodes for the park and resume commands in
addition to the REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK opcodes. This way, we have to
options:
1. The block layer provides the interface to request immediate disk head
unloading and enqueues appropriate LINUX_BLOCK requests accordingly.
ide is modified to handle these requests directly, whereas scsi ULD
or midlayer translates them to the corresponding linux specific cdb.
2. The subsystem (i.e., ide / libata) exposes the interface to request
head unloading and queues up a park or resume request as directed.
ide would enqueue a LINUX_BLOCK request, whereas libata could stick
to BLOCK_PC requests by means of the linux specific cdbs for that
purpose.
So, which way am I to turn here?
[...]
> So, I'd like to export an interface to user space which is specifically
> dedicated to disk shock protection, i.e., only available for ATA / IDE
> devices. On the other hand, it would be desirable to make this interface
> transparent, so user space doesn't have to differentiate between devices
> driven by the libata or the ide subsystem. A sysfs attribute
> /sys/block/.../queue/protect or even just /sys/block/.../protect would
> be very convenient from a user's point of view. However, this would
> require something like a blk_register_protect_attr() /
> blk_unregister_protect_attr() interface so that libata and ide can
> export this attribute for disks after calling blk_init_queue(). Would
> that be alright with you? Otherwise, I'd have to implement this
> interface directly in the subsystems and *thats* where ioctls seem to be
> the easiest way to make this interface as transparent as possible to
> user space. In this case a park request of some sort would be fed to the
> request queue internally.
Alternatively, we could have similar scsi_register_protect_attr() and
scsi_unregister_protect_attr() functions to be called from libata's
->slave_configure() callback. Not sure whether that's any better.
Regards,
Elias
[1] http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/3/7/253
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
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2008-05-08 17:43 Linux specific scsi CDBs vs REQ_TYPE_LINUX_BLOCK requests Elias Oltmanns
2008-05-09 11:55 ` Jens Axboe
2008-05-15 10:58 ` Elias Oltmanns
2008-05-15 20:17 ` Elias Oltmanns
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